Petal Modeste (02:46.788)
Professor Johnson teaches at Howard University School of Law. He received his BA from Yale University and his JD from Harvard Law School, where he served as an executive editor of the Harvard Civil Rights, Civil Liberties Law Review. His research explores the balance between national security and human rights law and policy in the United States and globally. Today we discuss his brand new book, Digital Coup.

The conspiracy to thwart global democracy, and we explore one of the defining parenting challenges of our time: how to raise critical thinkers in an age of manipulation, misinformation, and algorithmic influence. I’m gonna say that again. Today we discuss his brand new book, Digital Coup The Conspiracy to The Conspiracy to Thwart Global Democracy, and we explore one of the defining parenting challenges of our time.

How to raise critical thinkers in an age of manipulation, misinformation, and algorithmic influence. Welcome Darin to Parenting for the Future. We are absolutely honored to have you here.

Darin Johnson (03:58.019)
Thank you so much, Pedal. I’m really looking forward to our conversation.

Petal Modeste (04:02.746)
So I always like to start these discussions, Darin, by inviting our guests to share a little bit more about their personal journeys and the values that shaped them, that shaped them. So I remember that during your final year of law school at Harvard, you were selected as one of only two commissioned US Army officers to serve in the Secretary of the Army General Council’s Honors Programme at the Pentagon.

How did that experience shape your worldview and influence the path that you took thereafter, including your work as a legal advisor to the US Department of State, to the US Embassy in Baghdad, and to the Office of White House Counsel during the Obama administration?

Darin Johnson (04:45.794)
Thank you, Pedal. Well, you know, beginning my career as an active duty military officer at the Pentagon, particularly at the time that I served there, I began my service in 2000, just a year before 9-11. And, you know, obviously being at the Pentagon during 9-11 and experiencing not only that moment of the attack, but also the collective response really shaped.

How I think about the law, how I think about the role of legal professionals, particularly those in the military and the civil service in applying the law. And it really was foundational to many of the issues that I explore in my scholarship today. You know, the biggest lesson that I took during my time as a military officer at the Pentagon, and then my time as a civil servant at the State Department.

Which included stints at the White House, which you mentioned, what I really took from that time is that we are really fortunate in the United States to have some really dedicated military service members, civil service officers who take their job extremely seriously. What I have had the privilege of working, you know, for close to two decades with.

members of the military, members of the civil service and foreign service, you know, those are my friends, right? And family members. And so what I got to learn was that our democracy, our government really functions on really dedicated human beings, our next door neighbors, our family members who are trying to make the best decisions for this country, often in very, very difficult circumstances. And so I have nothing but respect.

for anyone who serves this country. And, you know, unfortunately, many times we have individuals who kind of mischaracterize what it means to be a member of government service. And, you know, unfortunately right now the rhetoric is not great. And I think having had the opportunity to begin my career in that space, you know, I know that that rhetoric is really simply politically motivated. I know how hard folks work.

Darin Johnson (07:11.25)
and how much they’ve been able to benefit the American public. So I got I got an insider’s view into all that and it’s it it has really shaped my view deeply.

Petal Modeste (07:21.006)
Yeah. So what was your impetus? Because some of what you said has always been true, right? Those who serve in government, those who serve in our armed forces, we you know, we deserve our admiration, they deserve our gratitude. you talked about starting your job at the Pentagon just a year before nine eleven, when obviously the world w sort of went into a little bit of a tailspin.

What is the impetus for writing this book now, since we’ve always had times in our lives as a country, as a world where national security issues have been at the forefront? Why is it imperative that we understand the phenomena of a digital coup at this moment in time?

Darin Johnson (08:04.618)
Yeah, you know, for me this book was somewhat of a long time coming and was a natural outgrowth of some of the research that I’ve been doing now for close to a decade. you know, the origin of my interest in the subject really came about by happenstance. I, you know, had been invited onto a friend’s radio show. He had asked me to speak about the Robert Mueller investigation.

And so this was the yeah, this was back in the spring of 2017, after you know, there were news reports about the Russian interference in the 2016 electoral process. And at the time, the Department of Justice appointed Special Counselor Mueller to investigate. and we all are familiar with the report that he released in 2018, but about a year before that, he reviewed and released his first set of indictments.

based on his investigation. And so as I was reading those indictments in the spring of 2017, I will tell you that my jaw dropped and really I hadn’t had an experience of shock like that since really nine eleven. And the shock that I felt was simply from reading the indictment and realizing in that moment that Russia

Petal Modeste (09:05.079)
Okay.

Petal Modeste (09:22.426)
Right.

Darin Johnson (09:32.193)
Had studied us in the United States and have sought to weaponize our history, our social divisions, our raw racial divisions against us. And when I read the indictment, I saw what a sophisticated campaign that they had run. And I was awed by just the audacity, right, of that desire to weaken the United States.

By pitting Americans against each other along these social fissures and racial divisions that we had spent over, you know, close to our 250-year history trying to heal from. And in that moment of shock, I realized, okay, this is a topic that I am absolutely gonna explore. I’m gonna understand what it’s about. And now, two larvae articles and a book later, I really have understood that.

It’s something that I wanted to conceptualize and describe to the broader public, right? That what we first understood in 2016 as a Russian attack on our presidential election really has now metastasized into a strategy used by authoritarian states and other actors to undermine democracy globally, not just in the United States but around the globe.

you know, for different motivations, but using similar tactics, which is to disinform, to divide and to undermine democratic democracies broadly and democratic institutions and processes specifically.

Petal Modeste (11:11.734)
Mm-hmm. And we’ll get into some of the specific tactics that these instigators use, but I want to first share with the audience how you define the term digital coup. You define it as an attempt to undermine, thwart, or overthrow democratic institutions, processes, or elections through digital means. So it’s not just the spreading of misinformation, as you’ve said, it is a systematic effort.

To weaken democratic legitimacy, fracture the public, and manipulate outcomes using digital technology. So I guess a great follow up question on that is well, what conditions in the twenty first century, our century, really enabled the rise of the digital coup?

Darin Johnson (12:00.792)
Well, you know, the digital coup tactics have really followed the creation of some really fantastic technologies, right? They have followed the creation of social media, the rise of you know other digital messaging platforms like Telegram and others. The tactics have followed the reality that not only the American public but the global public have taken our in-person conversations from the proverbial town square.

The digital town square. And because we are now largely communicating with each other in this digital space, you know, our adversaries and those who oppose democracy realized that this was an opportunity to undermine democracy. Now it didn’t have to be that way, and and and interestingly enough, when we look at the early years of the growth of social media, social media

Petal Modeste (12:32.323)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (13:00.16)
particularly when we look at the Arab Spring and the the preceding, you know, kind of so called Persian Spring, it was social media which was the vector through which political dissidents, you know, in places like Iran and and the Middle East North Africa region, it was the the modality through which they communicated and organized these major protest movements. And I think really authoritarian states and actors were paying attention and realized that social media was game changing.

Petal Modeste (13:19.662)
Right. Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (13:30.026)
Right, and could actually lead to revolutions that toppled their power. And so I think as a consequence of those early uses, the Twitter revolutions, the you know, these different popular uprisings that were facilitated through social media, I think they decided that they would now pursue a strategy of using social media to achieve their own objectives. And we’re now in that era where they have

Petal Modeste (13:35.672)
And

Petal Modeste (13:56.432)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (14:00.29)
kind of devised and and and utilized these tactics for quite some time.

Petal Modeste (14:06.146)
Mm-hmm. You argue in the book that, you know, as you’re saying, it’s a coalition of authoritarian states that have found common cause in efforts to undermine the democratic processes across the globe. And, you know, obviously they are the chief instigators of the digital coup, but what are the states that make up this coalition? And are they coordinated or do they simply follow

The same playbook? Like are they turning, like you call, you know, like you talked about, you know, the Twitter revolution and so on, are they simply just turning those things on their heads, using it for their own means?

Darin Johnson (14:40.876)
Well, you know, I think we really have to acknowledge that Russia under Vladimir Putin was the originator of this use of social media to divide in this particular way. And right, just like we became aware of it after the two thousand sixteen presidential election, I think really the global community became aware of these tactics. But interestingly enough, two thousand sixteen wasn’t the first time

Petal Modeste (15:09.304)
Mm.

Darin Johnson (15:09.472)
that Russia used these tactics. They actually had begun using these tactics in Eastern Europe in the preceding years in the mid 2010s, you know, 2013, 2014, they were using these digital coup tactics in places like Ukraine. and I think they were perfecting a model. And I think the the big game was 2016 in the United States, as well as there’s some evidence that there were similar efforts in the

in in the UK during the 2016 Brexit referendum. And so, you know, I I think Russia realized how successful these tactics were, and other states were paying attention. So, you know, other states that I mentioned in my book, including Russia and Iran, you know, those are the big players in terms of what we’ve seen in the United States, but there are other actors in this space. they all saw what Russia had done,

effectively if we’re talking about the reach of people in the United States who in some form touch disinformation and they said, okay, this is the new game in town, let’s get on board. And so, you know, I would call us I. I say that we are now living in the digital coup era and we’ve been in the digital coup era for I would say about a decade or so and it’s not going to change anytime soon. And in fact these tactics have now been used all around the globe.

Petal Modeste (16:20.048)
Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (16:38.544)
Mm.

Darin Johnson (16:38.941)
all around the globe. So this is the new modus operandi for undermining democracy.

Petal Modeste (16:47.34)
beyond elections, what are some of the institutions, the democratic institutions or processes that have been attacked using digital technologies? Whether we realize it, realize those attacks as such.

Darin Johnson (16:58.838)
Yeah, you know, so you gave a great definition for digital coup, that in fact the definition that I provided in my book. But I often, you know, in thinking about this topic, I often say that that definition can be even simplified into saying a digital coup attack is simply an attack on democracy through digital means, writ large, right?

Petal Modeste (17:21.424)
Mm.

Darin Johnson (17:23.968)
And so when we talk about democracy, democracy means so many things, right? It’s the institutions, it’s our electoral processes, but it’s also the body politic, right? And one of the things that I explore in the book is how many of these efforts are even outside of an election cycle, many of the efforts are simply targeted at creating social unrest and social division.

Right. And so if you can undermine the kind of peacefulness, the civility of a multiracial, multicultural body politic, through using social media to divide, it doesn’t matter whether you’re in an electoral cycle or not, you are undermining that democracy itself. And so one of the tactics that I explore is this idea of

digital polarization, meaning using these tactics to divide, to polarize, whether it’s racially, religiously, across political ideologies, to really create extremism views and hatred within a community. And many times we’ve seen that these tactics have also led to action offline.

Petal Modeste (18:48.815)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (18:49.116)
and have led to other things like digital radicalization, which I also talk about, which is, you know, fomenting terrorism and terror attacks. So it’s quite extensive and all of these tactics undermine democracies writ large through creating social division.

Petal Modeste (19:03.76)
Mm-hmm. Is there a financial angle to this? Like is there any economic or financial benefit to instigators of the digital coup, as well as, you know, the you know, the benefit to them of undermining democratic processes and institutions?

Darin Johnson (19:21.536)
Yes, in fact there is. And you know, one of the things that I explore in the book is that, you know, these tactics have now metastasized. So you know, the original model that we saw in 2016 was really Russia pursuing these digital coup campaigns through their human agents, right? Through intelligence officers, you know, sometimes using bots, engaging in these campaigns. Now I argue that we are in a digital coup economy.

where the purveyors of this disinformation are not just intelligence agents working for an authoritarian regime. Russia has evolved with the kind of Russia and other actors have evolved with the public awareness of the use of their tactics. And so now what we see is we see governments and other actors paying individuals at troll farms in Southeast Asia.

People are paid to go day in and day out to pump out disinformation online. In order, yeah, in order to confuse folks even more, the purveyors of these digital coup attacks are also now using local influencers, right? So they use people that have already developed their own followings and that are trusted and have these organic followings. They bring them to conferences, whether that’s you know, in

in Russia or other places and they get paid, you know, to now put out these talking points to their organic followings. so, you know, we are now in a digital coup gig economy. and another aspect of it is not only do you have the individuals pumping out the disinformation, influencers and otherwise troll folks at troll farms who get paid, you also now have private companies that have gotten into the game.

They see how lucrative. There are private companies that now offer their digital coup services. So there are companies, yes, there are companies who have devised and created technologies that create false profiles. They can sell their service of creating profiles of 10,000 different people, seemingly legitimate.

Darin Johnson (21:47.724)
from all these different locations and sell those profiles to states or other actors who want to use those profiles to now pump out disinformation. And so there’s now a private industry facilitating these digital coup attacks.

Petal Modeste (22:00.312)
Wow.

Petal Modeste (22:06.968)
my goodness. So obviously, as you have said in the book and and already in this conversation, you know, social media platforms are obviously sort of the key means through which these digital attacks occur. Which platforms have been used most by the architects of digital coups and why?

Darin Johnson (22:28.246)
Well, you know, these digital coup attacks go where the people are, right? So the platforms that have the largest followings have been the platforms used. So when we look at the two thousand sixteen presidential campaigns in the United States, it was IG, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, Twitter. and as we’ve seen over time, as new social media

Petal Modeste (22:32.653)
Okay.

Darin Johnson (22:56.962)
Companies have arisen with huge followings like TikTok, the tactics have fallen to those platforms. And as I mentioned before, it’s not only social media, it’s also really any place where there are a large number of people that can be influenced. So we also have digital platforms that are, you know, private messaging platforms like Telegram and other platforms that are also places in which these digital coup tactics are used.

Petal Modeste (22:59.738)
Right.

Petal Modeste (23:26.53)
Mm-hmm. So you discussed obviously in the book several examples of digital coups, right? We talked about Russian interference in the US 2016 election. You talked a little bit about the 2016 Brexit referendum. There was a lot of misinformation around COVID-19. That was another place we saw this. to a 2021 disinformation campaign in Burkina Faso, a 2024 campaign targeting

Moldova’s EU ballot measure, Chinese interference in the Taiwanese elections, and of course, you know, white supremacists and other radicals organizing online. Now, you in the book named some of these tactics.

With specificity that are used to wage this a successful digital coup. You say one tactic is digital deception, another is digital division, which I think is a little bit of what you were talking about with polarization. And then you talk about digital radicalization and digital manipulation. So let’s start with digital deception. Can you define what that means?

Darin Johnson (24:35.266)
So digital deception is a term I use to refer to the use of disinformation. And the reason I use the term digital deception is because the deception can occur in multiple ways. So, one, when we talk about disinformation, it’s typically understood to be information that is false, right? But that is put out into the world.

Petal Modeste (25:00.59)
Right.

Darin Johnson (25:03.356)
with a particular goal of deceiving people and coercing them into holding a particular viewpoint. So digital deception includes the kind of the sending out of disinformation, the the dissemination of disinformation, but it also includes deception regarding who is posting that information, right? So a major part of these

Petal Modeste (25:21.359)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (25:32.044)
Digital coup tactics are to make Americans think that the individual that is posting the information or that is posting particular views is someone other than who they present as. so so one of the anecdotes that I share in the book and that you know that I’ve shared in in my talks in the past is that I I quickly realized when I began researching this topic that I like the over half of

The American voting age public was also a victim of digital deception in the 2016 presidential election. Right there I discovered that there had been a Facebook group that I had been following since the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement. It was a group called Blacktivist. and This Facebook group posted, I thought, really good organic content talking about the BLM.

Petal Modeste (26:06.01)
Wow.

Petal Modeste (26:19.95)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (26:30.02)
protest movement and different events that were taking place. And I followed it, you know, wanting to stay informed like most folks. And I discovered when I started researching this topic that Blacktivists were simply a bunch of Russian hackers. Right? Yeah. And that was their goal as they presented them. And it was, you know, that was a particular group that I followed, but they weren’t only targeting, say, individuals like myself following the BLN movement.

Petal Modeste (26:45.729)
my god. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (26:57.58)
They were following folks who were opposed to things like BLM. They essentially would position themselves on every side of any issue and present themselves as authentic and then pump out information first to draw people in and to get them to believe that they were an organic group or presenter. And then over time, once they had the following, then they would seek to pump out disinformation or

Petal Modeste (27:10.137)
Yeah.

Petal Modeste (27:19.748)
Yeah. Right.

Darin Johnson (27:27.5)
voter suppression tactics or to polarize. And so there was a whole system to it. And so when I read that I I I I just realized, you know, anyone, all of us, likely have been and can be victims of this digital deception.

Petal Modeste (27:37.71)
Yes.

Petal Modeste (27:42.768)
Mm-hmm. What about digital division? Is that the same as polarization, which you explained before?

Darin Johnson (27:48.032)
Yeah, so digital division exactly refers to polarization. So it’s kind of the next step, as it were, in this digital deception. So once you have deceived people, gotten them to believe that you’re someone other than who you are, or gotten them to believe in your messaging, then the messaging ramps up, right? And the deception begins to target folks who maybe are

Petal Modeste (27:53.677)
Okay.

Petal Modeste (28:07.696)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (28:16.022)
more likely to be receptive to polarizing messages. But the idea is to create extreme views, to polarize folks along issues and to to build anger, to build upset, to build unrest. and so that’s polarization. It can occur along racial lines, along political lines, along religious lines. You name the social fissure or the social issue

Petal Modeste (28:19.758)
Right.

Petal Modeste (28:29.688)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (28:45.135)
Yes.

Darin Johnson (28:45.461)
And this digital division is meant to basically inflame and inflame views and inflame people.

Petal Modeste (28:53.804)
Mm-hmm. And it kind of leads to the next one, which is digital radicalization, I would imagine.

Darin Johnson (28:59.538)
Absolutely. And digital radicalization is just kind of the worst extreme, right? When we look at groups like white supremacist groups and others that communicate on social media platforms, major ones which many of them were kicked off of, and then they ended up going on to more isolated platforms and message boards that cater to people with extremist views. The

Petal Modeste (29:04.974)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (29:28.758)
The radicalization is the sharing of you know ideologies that lead people to then engage in violent tactics offline, right? And and we can see these the use of social media and digital platforms to get people to become violent. and unfortunately that’s been a reality and we can see it from you know the various hate crimes attacks, you know, the rise of white supremacist attacks.

Petal Modeste (29:39.354)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (29:58.166)
Much of that occurred through the sharing of white supremacist ideologies and manifestos online, as well as tactics and how to engage in these attacks, as well as you know, using other attacks as inspiration to encourage folks to to do the same. And so, you know, d as you mentioned, digital radicalization is kind of the extreme of these tactics.

Petal Modeste (30:16.4)
Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (30:22.446)
Yeah, and then obviously the more extreme, the more manipulative and the greater the likelihood of some of the instances that you just described. I was pretty fascinated when I was reading the book because I have a 10-year-old and every day in her vocabulary she uses the phrase or the acronym IRL, which means in real life, because she has to distinguish

Or life online with Roblox and what have you, and IRL in real life. And I was really struck as I read the book by your discussion of cyber militias, like the hackers, the trolls, the cyber operatives, and the digital propaganda propagandists, propagandists, propaganderists. I’ll get it right, who function as foot soldiers of the digital coup. Tell us a little bit more about these actors and how.

Darin Johnson (31:14.072)
It’s a tongue twister. Yeah.

Petal Modeste (31:21.708)
Online manipulation increasingly is spilling over into real world violence and instability.

Darin Johnson (31:28.63)
Yeah, no, that’s absolutely right. So, you know, we talked a bit about the you know, the troll the growth of troll farms, the use of, you know, human agents in these digital coup tactics and attacks, but it’s important to realize that, you know, there are other actors who are motivated not only by undermining democracy, but that are also motivated by hate.

And so you have white supremacist groups, other hate groups that have used social media and digital media as a tool, as we mentioned, radicalization. You know, early on we first started to see this largely with ISIS. When ISIS began to grow, we saw how they were very effective in using social media as a tool of recruiting and radicalization. Then we saw it with

Petal Modeste (32:16.568)
Yes. We have to do

Darin Johnson (32:24.086)
Kind of the growing white supremacist global movement using similar tactics to to create ra to radicalize people and to share information on how to engage in attacks. And what I discuss in the book is that you’ve got both the digital and the IRL militias, right? So you have the people that are using social media, digital platforms.

As a means of radicalizing and sharing information on how to engage in these violent attacks. And then unfortunately, you have the folks who actually carry out these attacks and violence in the real world. Whether they’re folks that you may have traditionally seen as you know terrorists, people likely to engage in terrorist action, or whether they are radicalized individuals who, you know, outside of

Petal Modeste (33:05.776)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (33:21.388)
This echo chamber and this, you know, increasing disinformation and violent rhetoric may not have engaged in a violent attack. A perfect example is January 6th in the United States, right? And how you had all those folks show up at the Capitol, engage in extreme property destruction, violence against Capitol police officers, which resulted in deaths.

Petal Modeste (33:30.832)
Hmm.

Petal Modeste (33:34.958)
Yeah. Yeah.

Darin Johnson (33:51.346)
And they were largely radicalized, right? They were motivated to action by, you know, the kind of stop the stealing, the big lie, as well as this kind of intersecting vector of all these different kind of ideologies, which I talk about in the book, right? yeah, so that’s one example. And it’s January 6th, you know, the United States is not the only place that’s happened. We’ve seen

Petal Modeste (34:11.556)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (34:20.022)
similar attacks in Germany and in Brazil, all motivated by this messaging online getting people to engage in disruptive violent action in real life. Yeah, just like Charlottesville, the Charlottesville was was one of these campaigns. Yeah.

Petal Modeste (34:20.164)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (34:34.56)
real life. Right. That’s true. Yeah. So now we also have, of course, the rapid advancement of generative AI and AI enhanced tools like Meliorator and Golaxi. and some of those tools. Should we be even more afraid? Because it seems to me that some of these tools have the capabilities and they they pose threats that

I guess it can make cyber militias even stronger, expand their reach and expand their influence.

Darin Johnson (35:12.392)
Absolutely. With the creation of generative AI, you know, I was mentioning before that there’s this private digital coup economy where you have companies that sell their digital services. Some of these private entities have offered services using generative AI to a range of customers. And the reason that generative AI promises to exponentially enhance

This issue is because, you know, although before we were talking about the use of human agents, troll farms, influencers as the vectors for these digital campaigns, you know, we are also familiar with the use of bots. But what Generative AI now does is it allows for even more false identities to be created, right? Culling information from online in terms of creating real appearing images.

Petal Modeste (35:49.637)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (36:12.12)
when creating these identities that can be bought and sold and used. And then the generative AI seeks to model and seeks to model the actual human behavior. And so you can know I can imagine a world where people are engaging with false profiles that are not being operated by a human agent, but are being operated by the generative AI, which increasingly learns how to appear more and more human.

Petal Modeste (36:38.618)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (36:41.802)
and can be trained into how to be more and more manipulative and to exploit people’s views and to polarize. And so generative AI is just a game changer which exponentially increases the harm that we’ve already seen in this digital coup era.

Petal Modeste (36:54.096)
Yeah.

Petal Modeste (36:57.634)
So, what does successful resistance to the digital coup look like? Let’s begin with the individual or at the individual level. You point out in the book that most citizens, including me, don’t understand malware and source code and bot networks or the sort of technical architecture behind digital manipulation. So, if most of us don’t get that, what practical steps can ordinary people take to become more resilient and less susceptible?

to this kind of manipulation.

Darin Johnson (37:29.996)
Yeah, I think the reality of what we’re seeing online, and you know, and I count myself in that group, right? I’m a trained lawyer. I was not in the tech industry before I began to explore this issue, right? I have a national security, you know, international law background. and I started to explore this because it was a relevant issue impacting all those areas. But what I’ve realized is that we all need to

Petal Modeste (37:48.011)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (37:58.786)
To a certain extent, become technologists, right? Or to be lifelong learners about the evolution of these technologies. And I think simply being aware that this threat exists provides the opportunity for folks to engage in a bit more discretion, a bit more skepticism, and a lot of verification about.

Petal Modeste (38:14.927)
Yeah.

Petal Modeste (38:21.584)
Okay.

Darin Johnson (38:28.764)
what they’re reading, reviewing, and communicating with online is as well as, you know, you mentioned your 10 year old daughter, as well as, you know, having insight into what their children are up to. So I think one thing is it requires us to become lifelong learners to learn more about these technologies, and in particular how they’re being exploited. And I think simply having that awareness can lead to a degree of healthy skepticism.

Petal Modeste (38:41.871)
Yeah.

Petal Modeste (38:47.128)
Like now.

Darin Johnson (38:57.694)
about our online communications.

Petal Modeste (38:57.806)
Right. Mm-hmm. What about our legislators or policy makers or elected officials? How can governments use laws and diplomacy, forensic audits, sanctions, even digital embargoes to defend our democratic systems? I’m thinking, for example, about the Digital Services Act, which was passed in the EU, I think about

Three or four years ago? Is there anything we can learn from something like that in terms of how our governments can help to protect us?

Darin Johnson (39:30.508)
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think there are a few things. I’m gonna talk about the EU Digital Services Act because I think they’re really the major player in the game right now that’s at least attempting to address this issue. so so I’ll talk about the the Digital Services Act as as a potential model, but I but I also want to mention that there are things that can be done even on so

Petal Modeste (39:46.714)
Okay.

Darin Johnson (39:59.094)
The DSA hopefully, if applied correctly, would prevent a lot of this disinformation. But even realizing that disinformation is going to occur, there are things that can be done on the back end to protect the public and to create awareness about the disinformation and to get actual information out there. So I’ll talk about that second. So as it relates to the DSA, one of the things that the European Union

Petal Modeste (40:23.416)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (40:27.542)
has done through the DSA is they essentially have required that major social media companies that operate within their territory that they actually engage in content moderation, meaning that they have a plan in place to monitor, to disrupt disinformation, to disrupt false and deceptive identities online. So it it it requires in the first instance that companies

Petal Modeste (40:39.664)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (40:55.688)
actually address this as a real issue and then report on what they’re doing, right? And regularly report on how they’re addressing different problems at the risk of financial sanction and then, you know, in the worst case scenario, at the risk of not being able to operate in their territory. Now is it perfect? No. You know, I I talked my my best friend and my brother are both technologists and so

Petal Modeste (41:15.802)
Right.

Is it?

Darin Johnson (41:22.7)
You know, we have these conversations and kind of their view is right, yeah. What once, you know, once the legislators and lawyers and policymakers get in the game, the technologists are always gonna kind of figure out a way to get around it. Yeah, you know, kind of their view is that the policymakers are always several steps behind because they don’t understand the technology. And I think there absolutely is truth to that, but I do want to give credit to the European Union for at least making an attempt, right, and starting to create.

Petal Modeste (41:33.272)
Around it.

Petal Modeste (41:40.356)
Yes. Yes.

Yeah.

Petal Modeste (41:49.37)
Yes.

Darin Johnson (41:51.586)
Hopefully some best practices. And the reason I say that is because regulation didn’t have to be the only way in which social media companies operated responsibly. Right? Social media companies of their own accord could decide as digital citizens, right? As good digital citizens, they want to ensure that this disinformation is not happening. But as I’m sure you know you and many understand and as I discuss in the book,

Petal Modeste (41:53.518)
Yeah, yeah.

Petal Modeste (42:09.295)
Yes.

Darin Johnson (42:20.802)
There are lot of financial and other incentives for certain social media companies not to regulate, right? And so I think the reality is that we can’t rely upon you know, this desire that social media companies and their owners view themselves as good digital digital citizens as them self-regulating, right? You know, there were periods where we did have some good content moderation and

Petal Modeste (42:29.06)
Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (42:45.113)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (42:49.122)
We had some best practices that were developing at Twitter and Facebook and other places. But as we’ve seen in in the last year, a lot of that is at the whim of the leadership, right? And if the leadership changes or the political environment changes, the content moderation can go out the door. So, you know, while the EU’s Digital Services Act is not perfect and can be criticized, at least they’re trying, right? so I’d say that they’re the principal player in the game right now.

Petal Modeste (42:58.638)
Yep. Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (43:13.978)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (43:18.78)
outside of that, you know, what can be done at the community level, right? Outside of this kind of regulatory model, what I think we can look to is countries that have developed best practices, or rather, let me say, populations that have developed best practices because they understand the threat that they’re under from these digital coup attacks. So what we see in places like Ukraine.

Petal Modeste (43:45.625)
Mm, okay.

Darin Johnson (43:48.568)
Ukraine and Taiwan, which have been under these unrelenting types of attacks on their elections for for you know nearly longer than anyone, is that they have developed very robust intersectoral ecosystems to address these challenges. So for example, let me specify what I mean. So in in Ukraine and Taiwan, you have collaborations

Petal Modeste (44:09.808)
Okay.

Darin Johnson (44:18.028)
between journalists, academics, civil society organizations, government agencies, and social media companies to respond to disinformation, right? Through a variety of means, through fact checking, through dissemination of accurate information when disinformation is discovered, through the use

Petal Modeste (44:20.049)
Mm. Okay.

Petal Modeste (44:31.992)
Okay.

Petal Modeste (44:41.359)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (44:45.656)
another actor in the space, there are actually pro-democracy hackers, right? Who are able to, you know, kind of sound the alarm as an early warning system when they detect that disinformation is being deployed by bad actors that are part of this ecosystem. And so it’s that I think the collaboration that has made the responses in those countries quite effective. You know, those responses being cutting off the disinformation, accurate fact checking, getting that information

Petal Modeste (44:49.86)
Yeah. Right.

Petal Modeste (44:59.012)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (45:14.046)
out right away to the population. They’ve also devised their own digital tools like digital apps that allow kind of real-time vetting of information that’s being shared. So there are a number of things. And then you can couple that with, you know, decisions that some other states in Western Europe have made that have disallowed the sharing of information about electoral candidates through social media in certain periods before an election.

Petal Modeste (45:22.351)
Okay.

Darin Johnson (45:41.772)
So there are a variety of tools and tactics that have been developed in countries and among populations that are taking the issue seriously. So the first step is to realize that there’s actually a threat, and then in understanding that there’s a threat, then you know, best practices can be developed and deployed. And I think here in the United States, you know, we understand that there are some people who understand there’s a threat, but we have not yet gotten to a place where we are collectively acquired.

Petal Modeste (45:52.144)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Darin Johnson (46:11.234)
across different sectors, right, cooperating on really preventing this threat and seeing it as something that we need to do to defend our democracy.

Petal Modeste (46:21.102)
Yeah. So early in the book, you note that obviously for more than two decades, you’ve worked within the United States Department of State, in the Pentagon, the White House, and obviously the Legal Academy where you are now. You know, because of all of this work that you’ve done, because of your scholarship, you know what a national security threat looks like. And you argued in a 2019 article published in the Columbia Journal of Race and Law that racism itself.

should be treated as a national security threat. And I’m wondering if doing so, and and maybe thinking about other forms of extremism, other other isms, if doing so is in itself a way to resist digital coups.

Darin Johnson (47:08.904)
Absolutely. So the argument that I make in that piece is that it is in our collective national security interest to ameliorate and to limit the forms of racism and the other isms that we see, particularly through public actors, right? Public agencies, public entities, but also to robustly respond.

when we see, you know, the use when we see private activity on these grounds occurring. And the reason is thus, right? We should react to respond and seek to ameliorate racism, other forms of discrimination, the isms, the phobias, simply because it’s the right and moral thing to do. Right? So I just wanted to say that as a starting point.

Petal Modeste (48:07.3)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (48:07.713)
But the argument that I also make in that article is taking that as a given, we also need to understand that these forms of discrimination also are now being weaponized against us by by other states. And right, so what Russia and others have done is they understand that when you have situations of discrimination against communities, those are issues that can be exploited.

To further drive wedges and division within a society. And so the argument that I make in that piece and a view that I still maintain is okay, so let’s collectively work together to limit the issues for redress that arise from these forms of discrimination, so that when Russia and other actors come in and and seek to use those social fissures as a way to divide to divide.

Petal Modeste (48:41.284)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (49:06.123)
there is less of an ability to do so because we have handled our business in-house as it were, before others can come and exploit our divisions.

Petal Modeste (49:12.56)
На і

Petal Modeste (49:16.248)
Yeah. I I I think that is quite a a a novel and and powerful argument. So you know, Darin, the mission of this podcast is to help parents better understand the forces shaping the future, to equip them with cut-in-edge tools, insight strategies that they can use as they raise the next generation of hopefully purposeful, resilient and thoughtful human beings.

Given the environment in which our children are now learning, socializing, forming identities, consuming information, and practicing to be citizens, it has become critically important that we raise our young people to be able to distinguish fact from fiction and manipulation from reality. I know you agree with that.

Social media use, obviously, among young people is ubiquitous. The Pew Research Center reports that nearly half of teens all over the world are online constantly. And even with that, in 2021, UNICEF’s digital misinformation/slash disinformation and children survey found that only 2% of young people, 2% of children, possessed the critical literacy skills necessary.

To determine whether a news story, a simple news story, is true or false. At the same time, both Stanford University and Common Sense Media have suggested in other studies that relatively modest, well-designed media literacy instruction can significantly improve a student’s ability or young person’s ability to identify misinformation and evaluate dubious sources. So you are a law professor, you’re a national security expert, you’re also a parent.

Are there any practices or frameworks that you have used in your work or habits that you have developed with your students, for instance, that parents can borrow, can adopt to help their children develop stronger critical thinking skills?

Darin Johnson (51:15.637)
You know, I I I love this question because it’s you know, it’s something that speaks to not only our responsibility our responsibility as is good, you know, digital citizens and and citizens generally, but also our responsibility as parents, or even if you’re not a parent as someone who cares about our youth. So you mentioned the success of media literacy education.

Petal Modeste (51:36.877)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (51:44.566)
So absolutely, I think that that should be mainstreamed, if not in schools, that it should be broadly available, whether that’s through libraries or other places where information is readily accessible by children. so absolutely the media literacy training. I also think, you know, it dovetails with what we were talking about earlier, which is that as citizens and as parents, we have to be lifelong learners.

understanding technology and how it’s evolving and the ways in which it’s being used. I think we ourselves as parents need to understand what our children are up to online, what technologies they’re using and the impact those technologies can have on them. I wanna share a small anecdote that I think relates to this issue. You know, one of the things that I talk about in the book as it relates to to TikTok is that

Petal Modeste (52:36.56)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (52:43.337)
Some of the research so let me start by saying that there have been lawsuits filed by many states’ attorney generals against a number of social media campaigns because of harm that has accrued to children and youth based upon their use of those technologies, right? And so through that litigation that we’re seeing right now and the discovery that’s coming out of it.

Petal Modeste (52:55.109)
Yes.

Petal Modeste (53:06.276)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (53:12.001)
We’re starting to understand what social media companies do and don’t know about addictive aspects of how technology is designed and what impacts that technology can have on children. We’re seeing studies that have come out about how Instagram can have an impact on young people’s views of how they see themselves in their bodies and things like self-harm. So there’s a lot of information out there for p parents to digest.

Petal Modeste (53:25.808)
Mm-hmm.

Darin Johnson (53:40.998)
and to inform how they allow their children to be using their devices. but the anecdote that I want to share is about TikTok. what one of the interesting things that I find about TikTok, you know, as both a parent and a national security scholar is that the version of TikTok that exists in the United States, it’s much different than the version of TikTok

Petal Modeste (53:49.721)
Okay.

Darin Johnson (54:06.427)
that the Chinese government allows to be used and accessed by children in China. So the version of TikTok that is accessed in China heavily focuses on educational content and has limitations on the amount of time and access that children can use the app. So there is awareness, right, by the owners and producers of these apps.

Petal Modeste (54:11.277)
Okay.

Petal Modeste (54:15.376)
Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (54:32.205)
Yes.

Darin Johnson (54:35.763)
About the potential harms that can accrue from their use, the addictive content, and the harm that can result from a lack of monitoring. And I just find it instructive that there is one set of practices that is allowed for a nation’s own youth, and a different set of practices that are allowed globally. And so, you know, thinking about it as a parent and a national security professional.

Petal Modeste (54:39.216)
Mm-hmm.

Petal Modeste (54:55.032)
Hmm.

Darin Johnson (55:05.153)
Of course, the conclusion I reach is that there is a legitimate concern about the ways in which some of these apps are being used that China is trying to protect against and protect its own children, that maybe is not so concerned about in the versions that are being used elsewhere. And so I think that’s instructive for all of us that we need to do this research and to and to be particularly conscious about.

Petal Modeste (55:10.202)
Yeah.

Darin Johnson (55:34.519)
the apps that our children are using and the impact that those apps have on their well being.

Petal Modeste (55:40.878)
Yeah. I mean I I think back to all that you talked about in terms of of digital manipulation and sort of this this idea that a lot of the the the impetus for for those who are instigating digital coups is to foment anger and fear and disgust, tribalism and and a desire to belong somewhere, which are very strong emotions.

And I’m wondering what your thoughts are, and maybe the answer is the same: that we need to learn these technologies ourselves. We need to really model good digital citizenship and help our children do the same, et cetera. But I’m wondering how we can help our kids and how we can build more emotional resilience, I guess is a good term, and self-awareness, so that we could actually even distinguish what a strong emotional reaction might be versus something that’s actually truthful or false.

Darin Johnson (56:35.775)
Yeah, I I think it’s realizing what you just said that many of these algorithms, you know, they understand and are designed to push out content that evokes an emotional reaction. Whether that’s anger or fear or some other type of reaction, that’s the content that most quickly results in viewership or people opening it.

Petal Modeste (56:53.04)
Yes, yes.

Darin Johnson (57:02.965)
Right. And so companies understand that, the algorithms understand that. So it’s the content that is most provoking of emotion that often is pumped out to us. So one of the things that I I would say is let’s get offline more. You know, social media is here to stay and it has, you know, wonderful benefits. But I think the reality is that we need to spend more time offline interacting. Yeah.

Petal Modeste (57:03.012)
Yeah.

Petal Modeste (57:19.183)
Yeah.

Petal Modeste (57:31.052)
I R L Yeah. Yes.

Darin Johnson (57:32.576)
Yeah, IRL, more time IRL, interacting with each other, with our families, with our friends, with our neighbors, in real organic circumstances and not just through the lens of social media. So I think spending more time offline is something that we should all think about and and and I have to push myself to do that, oftentimes ’cause yeah, you know, even even when I’m, you know,

Petal Modeste (57:57.018)
Yes, we all do. Yes.

Darin Johnson (58:01.739)
particularly when I’m with my children. And so I think it’s something that we all just need to be conscious of.

Petal Modeste (58:03.152)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Well, thanks, Darin, so much for sharing this important work with us, this important book and helping all of us sort of

Become aware of the digital coup, its consequences, the scale, the scope of it, and for encouraging us to spend more time IRL, which would not only deepen and strengthen our relationships with each other and within our communities, but perhaps would help us avoid some of the manipulative technologies that are being deployed to destroy our way of life, quite frankly.

Your conversation made it really clear that parents, educators, policymakers, all of us have a lot to learn as we navigate this rapidly evolving digital landscape. But it also has helped us realize that we can do it. We still have a lot of power. Like I say in lots of conversations, AI hasn’t fully replaced us all. and we still have agency and and the ability to to

Do what we can to teach our children to think critically and to and to make wise decisions. So thank you so much for spending time with us. You’re always welcome to come back to parenting for the future. I suspect your next book will be a handbook about how to recognize all the deep fakes. So you can come back and let us know. We’re grateful for you, for your expertise, for your public service, and we wish you continued success.

Darin Johnson (59:32.353)
Thank you, Pedal. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you.

Darin Johnson

Digital Coup

Darin Johnson Publications

The EU Digital Services Act