Petal Modeste: Approximately. One in 5 children in the United States will experience the death of a parent sibling or primary caregiver before they turn 18. That’s over 6 million kids worldwide. UNICEF estimates. At least 10,000 children lose a parent or primary caregiver every day, meaning that nearly 140 million children under 18 are bereaved. Left unaddressed. Grieving children are more likely to endure mental health challenges, perform poorly, academically, and are more likely than their non-grieving peers to have negative, long-term physical and financial outcomes. In other words, grief can completely undermine a child’s future. Our guest, today, however, Brianne Overton is doing something to change the outlook for grieving kids. She is the Chief Clinical Officer of Experience Camps an award-winning national nonprofit that provides no fee, clinically informed programs and advocacy for kids who have experienced the death of a parent sibling or primary caregiver through compassion, connection, and play Experience Camps fulfills its mission of allowing grieving children to embody lives full of hope and rich with possibility.

Brie has an MA in thanatology from Hood College, a Master of Education in clinical mental health counseling, and a Ph.D. In counselor, education, and supervision, both from University of Missouri, St. Louis. She has spent nearly two decades in the fields of grief, education, death, education, suicide, prevention, and intervention, and in supporting and counseling the bereaved. Welcome Brie to parenting for the future. It is an absolute honor to have you here.

Brie Overton (she/her): It’s  such an honor to be here. Thank you.

Petal Modeste: So, I always like to start these conversations, Brie, by understanding a little bit more about the people, the experiences that shaped you and I am particularly interested in what inspired you to study Thanatology, which is the scientific study of death and related practices, including the needs of the terminally ill and their families. So, tell us a little bit more about your background. And what led you to this profession.

Brie Overton (she/her): The short story is in undergrad, I took a class, my last semester of my senior year, called The Psychology of Death and Dying. I took this class, and I fell in love with the world of bereavement and grief and loss, and it opened these floodgates of all the possibilities that I never thought about working with before. And I wanted more of that. I’m from Missouri and so the closest program that we had was for mortuary science –  all about funerals and preserving the body. And that wasn’t really what I wanted. But I found a university or a college on the East Coast that had a master’s in Thanatology, and it was a specialization degree for folks who were in the medical field or counseling field, or, you know, different disciplines and equipped them to work with people who were dying. It was a much better fit for me, and so I packed up, moved to the East coast to do the program for a couple of years, and then came back home to do my counseling programs. And here I am today. I’ve experienced a lot of death along the way. Lots of losses as a child through, you know, teenage and adulthood, and I’ve always been open to having the conversation. I received a lot of support when I was younger, and I wanted to do that for someone else, and my hope is that we’re doing that for our campers every single time we’re connecting with them or supporting and working with them.

Petal Modeste: I think it’s important to really understand and appreciate the impacts of grief on children. I mentioned some of them in the introduction. Mental and physical health challenges. It could be poor academic performance, financial insecurity. But what does grief actually feel like for a child? 

Brie Overton (she/her):   When they are little toddlers, you know sometimes people say they don’t know what’s happening, or they don’t know what’s going on. Kiddos know what’s going on. They may not know the specifics, but they feel in their body. They may feel sadness. They may feel heavy. Kids think in terms of concrete thinking as opposed to abstract right. And so, as we’re talking to them, we’re giving them those concrete pieces of facts and information. We say words like dead and died, and death as opposed to they’re gone, or they went away. Older kids understand and start to develop or conceptualize what it means to be gone or what it means to be away. But for a kid, when we say we lost someone, or we lost something for a kid, you think, oh, I lost a pair of socks, and then I found them right? And so if I lost a person. I should be able to find this person. And so, we make sure that we’re using terms that are very concrete, very easy to understand, and when I say them the Kid knows exactly what I’m talking about. We can have a conversation about what that means. And as they age and grow, they move from that concrete way of thinking into more of an abstract way of thinking. And so, we can use different words with them. We can start to give them more information about what happened, the specifics around the death.  So, they feel, you know they feel it in their bodies, they feel the pain they feel, the heaviness sometimes they may not be able to articulate that or put words to it. And so, as parents, as counselors, as people that are supporting kids, we help them along the way with being able to acknowledge that there’s something happening and then helping them connect what is happening to a feelings word! I feel sad, and this is what sad feels like. My heart hurts. Why does my heart hurt or my chest hurts, and so we help put words to that. Sometimes our shoulders feel really heavy, and we’re not sure why, kiddos, who are in school sometimes, you know, they have a hard time focusing, or you’re a student now comes back to school after someone has died, and they may not be motivated right? Or it looks like they’re not motivated. They  may not be as active as they were before they may. They’re sleeping and their eating patterns change. So, as we’re working with kids along, you know, as they’re aging. And as they’re growing. We’re working with teachers and parents on some of the signs. Here are some things that you can look for. And if you see these things, try this.  And every child is different. We also have to think about just each individual kiddo along the and how, how they’re presenting, and how we can support them as they continue to age and grow.

Petal Modeste: Have you found, Brie, in your experience that our schools are generally fairly well equipped to, to really help students who are managing grief?

Brie Overton (she/her): No, I feel like schools are not as prepared as we would like for them to be, and that is not to say that there aren’t schools who get it right and who are doing great things with their students who are grieving.  That is a lifelong process. And so, if I have a kindergartner and their parent dies when they’re in kindergarten. They are continuing to grieve that loss as they grow. So, it wasn’t just something that happened when they were 5. Right. It’s something that will stay with them that they’ll carry as they continue to grow And it’s important for you know teachers, and for educators who, you know, experience and witness what that looks like. Now that this kiddo is in 5th grade, how have they changed over time, and having the communication with that kiddo’s caregiver, but also with the teachers before them. And then what does this look like now when they’re in 5th grade in my classroom. What types of supports do they need in place. And am I paying attention to some of the things that might be happening? Am I labeling it as something else? Am I saying that the kid is defiant? So,  it’s really important to make sure that we’re having those conversations. We as an organization, have worked with some schools. But I would love to give the schools and give schools the education, the training that they need that will in turn help them support their students that are coming into their classrooms with grief.

Petal Modeste: I guess that’s another role for caretakers, for parents is to advocate with the schools for their for the children who might be grieving, and to make sure that teachers are to your point, not labeling certain behaviors as defiant or oppositional or  what have you but to really understand the link that some of those behaviors might have to grief,  Is there a racial grief gap?

Brie Overton (she/her): Yes, there is. So, we have disparities across all of our systems. There are disparities in the financial obligations for that support. And so, what does it look like to be able to offer support that is affordable or support for families who really need that support, and who want that support. So yes, there are disparities across the board. And as practitioners and as providers, it’s our job, right? We’re tasked with, how do we figure out? How do we get support to the community get support to people. And how do we raise awareness that? Yes, this is happening. Grief is happening. People are feeling this loss, and there are people here that can offer the support, and we have to make sure that we are getting it to the people who need that support.

Petal Modeste: Yeah, I would imagine that culturally, too, there are gaps right? Because there are different cultures that view grief and death differently. And some there might be some overlap with race, obviously, but I imagine that those are other gaps that you might see.

Brie Overton (she/her): Of course. Here in the United States, we think a lot about what do I need and what does support look like for me? And when we think about countries outside of the US. Who are more like collectivistic countries. Right? Community based – we grieve together and when we have clients here, or people that we’re working with in the States, like we have to make sure that we are taking that into consideration too. We really have to take into consideration all the factors. What does support look like for a family who has come from China, or a family who has come over from Kenya. What does that support look like? And how are we meeting the need of the family as opposed to saying, Nope, we’re only going to focus on your grief, and that is it, and not really including the family or the community into that.

Petal Modeste: So, let’s turn to Experience Camps now. I understand that it started in Maine in 2009 as a single camp serving 27 boys who were grieving. So, tell us a little bit about who your founders were, and why they believed that a camp would be good for grieving kids.

Brie Overton (she/her): So, our founder for Experience Camps. Her name is Sarah Darren. She is our founder and CEO. And back in 2009 there was a camp across the road serving kiddos, who were grieving, and they were all girls in this camp, reached out and said, we have siblings to these girls who need support and who need a space.

And that’s where we started. I just I wasn’t there the summer of 2009, but I can imagine what it was like and just hearing the stories about that first summer, and how you know that first summer was like the springboard, for what Experience Camp is now.

Petal Modeste: Yeah. And the camps have really expanded. Right? You. You’ve gone way beyond Maine. You’re in California, Connecticut, Georgia, Michigan, Maryland. Maui (sign me up), Pennsylvania, and the camps are free. They’re weeklong overnight summer camps and I think last year you had over a thousand campers, maybe 1,200 campers or so from 42 states and 8 countries. And I also understand that there’s been a 500 increase in your wait list over the past 5 years. So how do you select campers? Because all these kids are grieving? How do you choose who gets to come to these wonderful camps?

Brie Overton (she/her): There’s an application process. We do invite our campers to come back year after year. So, our returning campers, we open enrollment for them a month before we open enrollment for everyone else, so we can secure the spots for our returning campers and then after that, we start to review applications. We want to make sure that camp is a good fit for our campers, but we also want to make sure that camp, that our campers are a good fit for camp, and so we do intakes with caregivers, and sometimes the campers are on the phone with us or on the zoom call with us. And that at that intake allows us to really to determine if a kiddo is a good fit for camp. So, some of the things you know we look for is that the death had to happen at least 6 months ago, so we have to be at least 6 months out from the death. Kiddos have to be willing to come to camp, so we are not a send them here regardless of if they want to come or not. We send lots of information and lots of videos. We also have conversations with caregivers and help them prepare like, what do I say to my kid? How do I talk to them about this camp, and so we help them with those conversations as well. And then, after that application process, we, you know, we start to enroll campers into the camps and locations where we have spaces Our camps are split by gender, and our campers are in bunks by their grade. So, we have, you know, 4th grade, 10th grade, or 5th or 5th grade, 4th grade through 12th grade bunks, and so other 4th graders will be with other 4th graders, and as they move up through the last year of camp.

Petal Modeste: So, what about all these people on the wait list who did not get into the camp? Let’s say last year. Do you provide any resources that might be helpful to them. Because you’re not a lot of camps like this around the world. So, is there anything that you provide them with at least, so that even if they’re not yet ready for camp, or the death happened, you know not within the timeframe that you look for is there any way that you help them as well?

Brie Overton (she/her): We have a wealth of resources. Some of the things that we send out are resources like local resources in your community and in your area through our organization. We have what we call “Playing through Grief Events.”  So, these are events that we have in the community. Sometimes we connect with other agencies or organizations. Sometimes we’ll go to like a skating rink or a bowling alley, and we invite not only our kiddos who are enrolled in camp, but also our kiddos who are on the wait list or families who may be interested. It gives them a chance and an opportunity to come out. They’ll meet campers. They’ll meet other camper families. They’ll meet us, the volunteers to be able to put a face with the name. We also do virtual camper reunions and events as well. So that, let’s say you don’t live in one of those cities where we’re having an event you can hop on. Caregivers are welcome to come as well and then we’ll play games and go into breakout rooms with kiddos, so that we are making these connections.  We have lots of different things that we do to help our kids whether they’re enrolled or not to help people feel welcomed, and to help them feel the community abroad that is here, and to help them feel connected to each other.

Petal Modeste: That’s wonderful. So, you talked a lot about volunteers. who obviously are part of the camp. Who are some of the experts or professional other professionals working with the campus. Because obviously, we’re dealing with kids who are grieving and I completely understand that being surrounded by other peers who are grieving, who get it, who understand their experience, will allow the kids to focus on the joys of childhood and having a great time in camp. But also, you have grief activities that are supervised by grief specialists. So, tell us about some of these experts working with the kids and what skills are they teaching the kids?

Brie Overton (she/her): Of course. I love talking about our clinical program. We have experts from the field that come to camp – counselors and social workers and psychologists, people who are clinical mental health professionals outside of camp, in their day to day lives will come to camp with us and be a part of our clinical teams. They’re part of our program teams. They’re part of our camp leadership, and they bring that expertise with them. They all work with our kiddos and support them emotionally and socially. There’s a clinical team at every single one of our programs. So, we have a clinical director who oversees all of the clinical aspects of the program throughout the week, and our grief specialists are the ones who are facilitating those clinical activities and bereavement activities with each of their bunks. And so we will do four clinical activities with our campers throughout the week. Two of those activities are sharing circles. And it’s like group counseling. So, I talked earlier about our 4th graders being with 4th graders and 5th graders being with 5th graders, and so on. So, that 4th grade bunk will sit with their group specialists along with their cabin counselors and the cabin counselors are the people that support them throughout the week. and their grief specialists will facilitate a conversation around their grief. For some of our campers, this is the first time that they may have ever talked about their grief, or said the person’s name who died, or even talked about what has happened to that person or happened to them and that peer support is there right? Our clinical team facilitates the conversation, and we allow our kiddos to move in that space, in the ways that work best for them we are all feelings welcome. So, any feeling that is in the space we want to acknowledge. And we want kiddos to really be able to lean into that. And so, if that looks like tears, or that looks like turning away, we want to make sure that they feel empowered to just experience what it is that that they’re feeling. So, we’ll do two of those sharing circles. We’ll also do two bereavement activities or clinical activities throughout the week. And those activities allow for a little bit more movement. These are ways that that we are talking about our grief and giving the space to really try on different coping styles. Let’s express our grief. Let’s figure out what that looks like. Let’s learn from each other what it looks like to cope. So, we use art. We use music, we use writing and drawing, drumming. It’s not one size fits all. We have to figure out what connects with us and what really helps us.  A lot of times we’ll ask like, when you’re upset, regardless of what may have happened and you’re at school? . The ways that they cope outside of grief and outside of loss, are really ways that we can help them connect in their grief and in their loss. And so if you are really upset because we lost that basketball game by two points, and I missed that last free throw, or whatever that may have been, and you maybe stomp off, or you need time and space like that may be when you are upset because of this grief, and it’s taking its toll, you may also need time and space here. And so it’s really helping connect with how they express themselves outside of their grief, to their grief and trying that on and seeing if that’s something that works for them.

Petal Modeste: Now, you’ve also started to offer family grief camps which are also free . They’re weekend long programs for the children who have experienced the death of a parent or primary caregiver and their immediate family. When did these start? And why was it so important to bring entire families into this experience?

Brie Overton (she/her): We offered two locations last year. And they were amazing. So, we have learned that in order to help support the whole child. So, we have the camper. We’re supporting them at camp, or maybe through a “Playing for Grief Event”. What does it look like to support their family? What does it look like to support their caregiver? What does it look like to help support their teachers or their coaches at school? And so, the next space for us was to really think about the family as a unit.  And so decided to do family camp. And it a Friday night all day Saturday, and then Sunday morning. So, it’s a long but very short weekend.

Petal Modeste: Yeah.

Brie Overton (she/her): And It was important for those caregivers to really be able to have a space to, to talk and to connect with other caregivers; to also hear you are not alone in your grief. There are other families here who are feeling some of the same things as you. A lot of times when we talk to families and doing those intakes for a week-long camp, we hear”.  “My kid has changed”. “My kid is different”. “I don’t know how to have this conversation, how to connect.” “ They seem mad all the time, I don’t know what to do”. And so to start helping caregivers have those conversations, to just help equip them with tools that will help them have those conversations; to help them feel they have a handle on this. At the end of the weekend, we have the caregivers, and our campers fill out a brief survey. Tell us what your weekend was like. We have so much wonderful feedback, like: “I didn’t even know this was something that I needed.” “This was the first time that I saw my camper smile or laugh.”  “I got to see them be out of their comfort zone, and really just lean into grief.”  “We hugged and we laughed together, and I don’t remember the last time that we’ve done that.”  And so, it’s something really special to really help the camper, but also the family connect to the grief as a family, that we hope is safe and brave, and empowers them to really lean in and to have some of these tough conversations. 

Petal Modeste: I do want to talk about the experiences – I think you call it “beyond the bunk”, that you offer to the that kids you support. There is a digital platform called “grief sucks”. I love that name by the way.  Who created this do you have like a youth Advisory Board, is it? Was it created for young people? by young people ? Who has access to it, and what and what are some of the support tools available on “grief sucks”?

Brie Overton (she/her): Grief sucks was created by our youth for our youth. We asked our campers a question: what does grief support look like for you? What do you need? What do you want? And they helped us create this beautiful website.  We have a Youth Advisory board of campers ages 12 up to 17. They meet throughout the school year once a month, and we come to them with lots of information. So, there is not a program, not an initiative, that we do without first having a conversation with them. So, they were very instrumental in helping us create “Grief Sucks.”  This platform young adults and teenagers to really come to a space that was created for them by them. There are videos of celebrities talking about their loss. We’ll do different surveys or questionnaires, and we’ll ask them, you know. Fill out these 4 questions, and then Survey says, and this is information that you all have given us. This is what you want. This is what you want to see. This is what you want to hear. Our YAB members write small blogs for us, they really connect like this is theirs, and they help us make it better every day. And there are just so many on the website that they can on this digital platform that they can lean into, and there are lots of teens that are connected to the website or connected to the platform.

Petal Modeste: That’s fantastic. Then you also have something called “Grief Quest”, and since my 9-year-old is addicted to Roblox, it really caught my attention. Apparently, you kicked this off in 2023 and it’s a big virtual experience where kids of all ages are playing together, supporting kids who are grieving. Can you tell us more about that?

Brie Overton (she/her): So,  I talked again about what does it look like to support our camper and to support the whole child? Who else do we need to support? And what does that look like to support them? And so, “Grief Quest” is this platform where you go, and you’re on this quest to find different tools, and as you find them, it pops up grief, education, and grief information.  And so, reading these snippets as you’re going on this quest and moving through the game because we need everyone to know about grief, right? Regardless of if you’ve experienced grief or not before, it’s really important to know some things about grief. You may have a grieving friend, and you may not know what to do or what to say. And so helping people who don’t have that direct experience,  and helping support them, give them the tools, give them the words, give them the voice to be able to reach out, to say, I want to be able to support you. We’re going to have that conversation without feeling hesitant or apprehensive about what to say or how to say it. Grief, Quest, allows us to put grief, education and information out through this game. People are learning a lot about grief and a lot about the journey of loss as they as they play through.

Petal Modeste: So, you know, Brie, this podcast our goal here is to really give all who parent a better understanding of the forces, shaping the future as well as cutting edge, parenting, tools and resources, all of which they can use as they raise their kids to thrive in and positively impact their world. At Experience Camp, you know that the first years of a child’s life should be filled with opportunities to explore, to wonder, to look ahead, to feel connected. But when a child experiences the loss of someone that’s really important in their lives, those opportunities often are replaced by feelings of guilt and sadness, regret, isolation. And you know, as we’ve been saying, kids don’t just grieve, they often feel that they will never be happy again. And so, when a grieving child finds community and support and they realize that they’re not alone. That gives them a lot of strength and helps them to heal and reconnect. What I find interesting is that you’ve also found that over 50% of families who are grieving struggle to find resources to help them. 

So, you have an advocacy arm as well. What’s your advocacy about, and who are your key partners in your advocacy work?

Brie Overton (she/her): We are huge advocates for grief, and we want to make sure that we are creating a grief-smart culture. Every initiative that I’ve talked about or that we’ve discussed today are ways that allow us to advocate right? They allow us to reach outside of our organization connecting with other organizations who may also support kids, or who may support adults who might be supporting grieving children. And so, Boys and Girls Clubs or YMCAs across the US, who already are supporting families. What does it look like for us to connect with them and to be able to offer small playing  through grief events, that allow their families to learn more about camp and to learn more about what this looks like. Because our campers are connected to lots of people when they leave camp,   we have so many campers who reach out to say, I want to start this at my school. What can we do? Can I work with my school counselor? And our clinical team stays very busy just meeting the needs of the different initiatives that people come to us with. And so our kiddos are advocates for grief and advocates for the journeys of others around them. We also have a huge base of volunteers from all walks of life, all disciplines across the globe connecting with organizations and agencies in their community. We have people that are helping us continue creating and opening more camps throughout the US. And sending people our way who can help us expand and grow.

Petal Modeste: I did have a question about that. Everything that you offer is free for the most part for grieving families and kids. So, I was curious about your corporate partners or donors, others who financially allow you to provide these camps and all these other resources.

Brie Overton (she/her): My goodness, we have an amazing development team at Experience Camps, and they are connecting with people all the time. We received funds from New York Life recently that will allow us to expand programming and to continue doing great work with our families. There’s a grant that we are working with helping us create different opportunities for more “Playing through Grief “ events. We have lots of fundraising events – people who run marathons in our name.  Our volunteers are amazing. And they’re always connecting people with us who are connected to our mission.

Petal Modeste: So, my last question for you, Brie, is, what are some practical things, those of us who are parents can do in our homes in particular, and perhaps advocate for in our schools to help ourselves and our kids, become, to use your word “grief smart” or grief, sensitive?

Brie Overton (she/her): Have conversations, real, honest conversations with your kids, making  sure that they’re developmentally appropriate, being able to use words like “death” and “dying” and “dead”. A lot of times people will say, “my doesn’t know anything about death”. And I’m like, do they play video games? Have they watched any Disney movie? Okay, so they know. they know a little something. It’s really being able to connect like things that they’ve already experienced with the conversation that you want to have. So, you know, in Lion King. when this happens, or in frozen I had a great conversation with my niece when she was 4, about Frozen when the parents sailed off, and it was the storm and no more parents. I had a beautiful conversation with a 4-year-old, and yes, I’m trained to have those conversations, but also as a caregiver, it’s  important to keep our eyes open right? You know your child best. If you notice that something is off, or something has changed, let’s have a conversation about it. And  sometimes it’s not always like using words. It could also be about drawing or writing, or through play. You know, you notice that your kid is building with blocks, and today it looks a little different. So, engage. Sit down with your child, ask if you can join them in this play, and then start to use different words like start to ask the questions. But for me that first, thing is really being open to having a conversation.  A lot of times we get caught in – “it’s late. Let’s go to sleep. Let’s have this conversation in the morning.”  That conversation’s not going happen in the morning. I know it’s been a long day. But let’s make the time to have that conversation now. This is when it’s on their mind. This is when they’re thinking about it. And if we don’t have that conversation, I imagine that they’re going be awake for a while, right? And they’re processing.

Petal Modeste: Yeah.

Brie Overton (she/her): But they’re processing it without your advice, without your support, without, and so find the time. Make the time to have that conversation when they’re ready. And it’s always right before bed. It’s always right before we need to be going into something else that those conversations come up. And what we’re communicating to them is that they are important, that their question is important. I want to hear what you have to say, and I’m here right. I’m here, and I’m ready, and I’m available to listen and to provide you that support.

Petal Modeste: I really like this Brie, because you know, it also says to parents who are listening, or caregivers who are listening, that

Petal Modeste: I like that a lot. You don’t actually in your own home have to experience a death. But you could have the conversation, so that there starts to be a healthy reference point when inevitably loss happens –  because it will happen to all of us in some way, shape or form.  It means that if they are meeting friends who are experiencing grief, they just have a little bit more of a facility with what grief is or what death is. And then when these things happen to our kids to  be more empathetic and to be more ready to manage grief overall. 

So, thank you for that really wonderful advice.  And thank you for joining us today. I really appreciate it, Brie, and thanks for all you do for grieving kids, because it will help ensure that their futures  are ripe with possibility, ripe with joy versus not. Thank you so much.

Brie Overton (she/her): You’re welcome. Thank you. It was an honor to be here.

Dr. Brie Overton

Experience Camps

Playing Through Grief Meetups

Grief Sucks

Weekend Family Camps

My Grief Comfort Book