Petal Modeste: The book by today’s guest begins with a stunning revelation made by a mom and Senior Executive at a large mental health organization during a zoom workshop with over a hundred other mental health executives. I quote, if I truly commit to ending racism when my white son grows up, what will he have? How will he even get a job? Everyone will be considered before he will and in racism is like cheating him out of his birthright end quote. Now, all of us have biases they might relate to race or racial identity, as in this case, or to other aspects of our lives and identities. Biases are limiting and dangerous. They inhibit our individual growth, cheat us out of rich and valuable interpersonal relationships, and prevent our institutions and our countries from realizing their full potential.

Most importantly, biases can make it impossible for all of our kids to thrive and make their unique contributions to the world. Our guest today, Dr. Dina Crawford, is on a mission to heal bias. Dr. Crawford is a licensed clinical psychologist and internationally recognized for her groundbreaking work in trauma-informed care, bias reduction and cultural healing.  From 2015 to 2020 she directed one of the nation’s largest trauma-informed care programs at Montefiore Medical Center, where she trained over a thousand staff across 20 practices, transforming the care of more than 300,000 patients. She developed the Crawford Bias, Reduction Theory and training or CBRT, a proven method to reduce bias, prejudice and racism in clinical and organizational settings. In September of 2020, Columbia University’s Zuckerman Institute created the prestigious position of scholar in residence.  Over her four-year tenure, she introduced a CBRT framework to some of the world’s most advanced neuroscience labs helping the scientific community adopt equitable inclusive and anti-bias practices. Dr. Crawford training includes a pediatric psychology residency at Tulane University and Fellowships with the US Department of Defense and the Center for Early Connections. Dr. Crawford’s new book, Healing Bias: Your Guide to Individual Interpersonal and Institutional Change is the topic of our conversation today. Welcome, Dana to Parenting for the Future. We are so delighted to have you here.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Thank you for having me, and it’s such an honor to be in this space, especially in these times.

Petal Modeste: So you grew up in a military family, where your mother, your grandfather, your aunt, and your uncle all served.  This meant, of course, that your life was somewhat nomadic, and, in fact, before 6th grade, I think you attended at least 5 different schools? So tell us about the values that informed your upbringing. And how did being a military kid shape, you.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Very early on. It was very clear that service was the expectation in my family for some members of my family. That service looked like military work, but my mom actually was in the reserves, and then, later in my life became a nurse. Throughout all of my childhood, I can’t recall a time that someone, cousins, aunts, grandparent, wasn’t serving and thinking about others and moving to different places going to different schools. One of the things that it taught me was, show up and make yourself useful. And I think that that belief system is not just anchored in the military, but being a child exposed to a military environment and system, early on kind of embedded that idea of showing up and being a useful person.

Petal Modeste: So if I remember correctly, you initially studied nursing.  What experiences were pivotal in helping you decide to pursue a career in clinical psychology.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: I worked in geriatrics in the early part of my career, and I found that when I had time to speak with my patients they asked for less pain medication. They complained less about their pain, and I became curious about what  this talking cure? What is it about? And I worked the night shift, so I had time to talk with patients. But when I was rushing, if something, you know, an emergency happened in the night and I didn’t get a chance to speak for that a bit of time with that patient, they  complained and pushed that call bell over and over again. So, I said, what is it about me speaking that is, changing their experience. So, I became interested in psychology. I wasn’t quite interested in the psychiatric approach. I wanted to sit in a room with someone and understand their experience. I shifted from geriatrics because I didn’t want to just know what happened at the end of life. It’s not what happened at the beginning. And so, then I shifted to pediatrics. So, throughout my career it’s been the lived experience of doing a job that has led me to ask the next question and pursue an expertise and knowledge and ultimately doing my very best to be a space of healing for others as well as for myself.

Petal Modeste: And that makes a lot of sense, because you do reveal in the book that you have experienced very deep, very personal pain over encounters you’ve had with racism, particularly from people that you thought were kind and caring. So, I’m curious about the experiences that you most credit with leading you to make understanding and healing bias the focus of your work as a clinical psychologist.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yeah, it really started with how disorienting racism, prejudice and bias are. And I introduced those terms often together, because it’s rarely just one element. It’s race. Maybe because I’m black. And then there’s gender because I’m a woman, and then I’m 6 feet tall. So, there’s a height element.  There’s always so much nuance. Some people perceive me as attractive, so that introduces another element. I’m thin (at least maybe not as thin as I used to be as a youth) but you know these things are always interacting. I remember when I started graduate school for my doctorate, I attended a rural college in the cornfields of Ohio. And everyone was so loving. You know that midwestern kindness, However, there was an undertone. comments like, you know you’re very pretty for a black girl or “I’m surprised you would know that as a Black person” and these just little comments that were really confusing, because it came to a point where I would ask, well, what is? What is it about the body that I live in that makes you perceive my brain differently? And so, I started to go down the path of trying to understand, how could it be that people who have dedicated their lives to mental health, to behavioral health could have a bias towards the very people that they are striving to help. And so that led me to this journey of not being so focused on the experience of clients of patients, but instead, on the very people who are providing those services.  What role does your own bias play in your ability to provide that service in a loving, compassionate, engaged, skilled way?

Petal Modeste: So ,let’s talk about bias. Now in the book you describe about 28 forms of bias, and some of them you alluded to just now, but they include things like parental status bias, generational bias, neurodiversity bias, height bias, colorism, appearance bias. I mean literally things that you don’t necessarily think about every day. So, how would you define that term, “bias”.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, because I named 28. And I would imagine when this book is available for everyone to engage with, people will say, Well, what about this? You forgot about this one? You forgot about this, and even naming 28, I probably left out a thousand more. Bias is a shortcut for the brain. It’s a shortcut that the brain uses when it’s tired, when it’s scared, when it’s trying to protect what it thinks might be at risk. And we use these shortcuts. If I can look at someone, I can make a quick judgment, and that saves me time, and maybe I’m not at risk for losing this thing I perceive as important. If I can decide you go in this box, then I can decide where I go and what I need. So, it’s really a time management system. The problem is, it’s inaccurate. And while we’re saving time, we’re losing other things like the ways in which we can fully see each other and connect to each other. We’re losing opportunities to understand someone’s perspective that we weren’t exposed to. But we saved time. And so that’s why all of these different forms of bias can show up. Because, however, you’re living your life, these shortcuts can be really useful, and we all use shortcuts. And that’s why the book is really centered on reducing bias, not eradicating it, because bias actually is quite useful.

Petal Modeste: How interconnected are biases, and how important is it for us to recognize that interconnectedness, if we are to reduce bias?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: I think of bias like a spider web. As soon as you pull one thread, there’s more. None of us are one thing. You are having this conversation. But we’re having this conversation as two women. We are having this conversation as two people who live in New York. We’re having this conversation across our different ages. We’re having this conversation as parents. We’re having this conversation as two people who are in a dialogue on a recorded podcast right? So, there’s always so much nuance. Did we both get enough sleep last night? So, one of us might be having it as a sleep deprived person, and the other one well rested.

Petal Modeste: Yes.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: There are so many nuances in our interactions. And that’s going to show up in our biases because it also determines what shortcuts we might need as we’re attempting to make meaning together.

Petal Modeste: How does trauma intersect with bias?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: You know many of the shortcuts that the brain creates are not just shortcuts about efficiency. They are shortcuts to protect us. The job of the brain is to keep us safe, and if we perceive that another group, another person, is dangerous, often that is linked to our own traumas. So, I remember when I was in college, I had moved into my dorm room a little bit early. I was an athlete, and I went into my dorm, and I was moving all of these boxes and suitcases from like the 7th floor to the 12th floor, and I had just had knee surgery. So I was kind of taking my time, and I went into my dorm room, and the blinds were down, and that was really disorienting, because when I had first come in there, I pulled the blinds up because I had an amazing view, and I really wanted to see the view. When I came in, the blinds were down, and something just didn’t feel. You know, it was really that gut feeling, and I went in cautiously, and I went into the room, and immediately I just felt someone watching me, and there was a man hiding behind my bedroom door in my room.

Petal Modeste: What?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: And he came out and he said, “remember me, remember me?” I had never seen this person before. You know, this was really like the lifetime movie horror thing that we all you know. Someone hiding behind your bedroom door, you know, very aggressive. And so, he’s like, “remember me, remember me?” And I’m just terrified. There’s no one around because I’m moving in early.  And he’s like, “remember my sister, remember what you did to my sister, and I’m going to show you”. So, then he grabbed me, and I just hit him. And I ran down the hall. And I’m pushing the elevator, right? Classic horror movie, right? I’m like, “come on” and I get in there, and I’m looking, and I’m like, “is he coming? Is he coming?” And I get in the elevator, and I go down and I see campus police there, and he’s stereotypically eating a donut, right? And I’m like, “Oh, my gosh! There’s a guy in my room. He tried to attack me” , And he’s like “Whoa! Whoa! Calm down, lady.”  You know, just even in that, being so patronizing.  And part of that was like calm down gender calm down, calm down these crazy wild students. Right? So, then we go back, up we get in the elevator and he goes into the room. Long story short, this guy had broken into my room. He was gone. The police ended up finding him. I gave a great description. It was horrifying, right? And how does that relate to trauma now? After that experience. They offered me a new room, but I didn’t want a new room, because it was a great view right.

Petal Modeste: Yeah, as you said.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: But every time I went into that room for months, I would always check behind the door, right? And for a while, whenever I saw someone that looked like him, I immediately thought, Danger! I’m in danger. I’m not safe. And what happens with bias, because the goal is to the brain is to keep us safe. What happens is we create these shortcuts of safety. So, very easily, without doing intense healing work, without engaging with my mind, I could have started to perceive any man that was 5, 10 who wore gray shirts as a danger, and I would have a bias towards them.

Petal Modeste: You use the term Culture-based Counter Transference, quite a bit in the book and I think there’s an entire chapter devoted to it. What is this exactly? And how does it relate to bias.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yes. So, when someone comes into therapy, the goal is really for that therapist to create a corrective emotional experience.

Petal Modeste: Okay.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: And they create that experience because that client is projecting that difficulty onto the therapist. It’s the therapist’s job to respond in a corrective, emotional way. And the way that they do that is by being a blank slate for that unresolved intrapsychic wound to be projected onto the therapist.  Now, Freud said that it’s very critical that therapists are blank slates, but we are not blank slates. We are whole people – you might be a little bit drowsy for that patient or maybe you really like that kid and they remind you of your own kids. So, you’re super engaged. Right? So, we’re not blank slates. The not “blank slateness”  is the counter transference, so the client is transferring to the therapist, and the therapist is countering that transference with their own stuff. So, you remind me of my kids. So now you know, I’m more invested. Possibly something about you reminds me of my own history. So now I have a different level of engagement. Maybe I’m very, very curious. And I’ve never worked with this population before. But I listened to it on a podcast. Or something like that. So now I’m intrigued, because now, finally, I have access to this story that that countertransference comes from culture, from our lived experiences. We are all cultural beings. We learn from each other. We learn rituals and routines in our communities. And then when we become therapists, when we become teachers, when we become and leaders, we carry that history with us, too. And that’s the part that the book is really trying to explore is, what is your counter transference? What shows up when you interact with someone? What are you projecting onto them that really has nothing to do with them, but has more, if not everything, to do with your experiences.

Petal Modeste: Got it. So, the Crawford Bias Reduction Theory and training which I will continue to refer to as CBRT  synthesizes your clinical experience and expertise, your lived experiences with bias, and of course, your commitment to a better, more equitable world. And it helps those who use it to uncover the psychological and systemic roots of bias, so that we could really understand how it forms (a lot of which you’ve explained to us already), how it operates, and then, obviously, how we can reduce it. What are the key prongs of the CBRT approach.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: So, the first is really anchored in what we know about culture, what we know about cultural competency, cultural humility, multiculturalism, whatever the term is depending on the age in which you’ve entered this work. I’ve been in it for about 20 years now, so the language is always changing.  The first part is, awareness – awareness of self, awareness of other cultures. But it’s an awareness that, regardless of your intentions, we are all infected with a socially transmitted disease, that is, bias. We become infected through our relationships, through each other, through our news, through our media. So, it’s an awareness of how am I infected with bias? And how does it show up for me? So that’s the first part. The second is investigating, investigating. How does it manifest individually inside of me, interpersonally, between us and institutionally,  around us. And  then we move to reduction, and the reducing is about moving away from this reactionary approach. Oftentimes, when people are experiencing racism, prejudice, and bias. And they’re called out. Preferably they’re called in to reflect. They can get defensive; they can get reactive. Or you see something horrible on your social media. Or you watch the news. And you see these horrific things that have happened to people because of the bodies they’re living in. It’s a plethora of horrible stories that happen just because the body that people live in and we get reactionary to that we get reactionary to that, because most of us are trying to be kind, loving, compassionate beings. And we’re good people. And it’s a moral injury to see someone be harmed because of the body they live in. Because of who they identify as because of who they know themselves to be right. And so that’s a moral injury like. This person shouldn’t experience that. So, then we react. We react through a protest. We react by boycotting. We react by saying, we need more trainings. We react by saying, we need more diversity.  CBRT is challenging people to move away from this reactionary approach and to be value driven. What are your values? What are your beliefs? What are your goals. Let’s not be so reactionary. Let’s be value driven.  The second part of that reduction is being present. We are all so time impoverished that we literally will tell our bladders shut up. I’ll pee later, right? We’ll not even listen to our whole bodies, right? We are tired, we will not listen, and so because of that, we may not be here. And there’s a pandemic of presenteeism. And so, the goal is to actually be present to be mindful.

The other element is, some of us are lying about, how we feel – how we think, what we experience. And when I say lying, I don’t mean to each other. I mean to ourselves – that sometimes we’re trying to be so hard. Oh, that didn’t impact me. There is great suffering, and that’s real. And so, it’s about not being dishonest. It’s about having the steadfastness it’s about being willing to engage and not to defend. And so that requires us to have authenticity. And the last part of that is really aiming to have a strategic and sustainable action. We cannot sustain reaction. We can sustain our values. So, it’s awareness, investigation and reduction.

Petal Modeste: AIR 

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yes. A lot of people don’t see that. Look at you!

Petal Modeste: How, if at all, does CBRT relate to or leverage the principles of like cognitive behavioral therapy, interpersonal therapy, and some of the other therapies that have been around for a bit.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yes. So, in the CBRT model and in the book there’s this acronym I use called LETUP , and it really is a step-by-step internalized model that gradually becomes an external action. So, the L is for listening. And what you’re listening to is not what the person said. It’s not the guy who broke into my dorm room. It’s listening to what’s happening inside of me, affectively, behaviorally, cognitively, and physically. That’s the cognitive behavioral therapy. It’s how you’re thinking about bias. It’s how you’re thinking about your thoughts and your feelings. It also leverages, recognizing that I could be having this internal experience. But you’re having your internal experience. And then we’re going to have to interact together. That’s interpersonal psychotherapy. It’s those elements that relationships heal us Often in bias, we might be striving to get over it to get rid of it rather than recognizing the healing process is through relating. That’s how we got the socially transmitted disease. That is how we will heal from it is through our relationships  The last part is acceptance and commitment, therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT. It is recognizing that we have thoughts and our feelings. A thought is just a thought. A feeling is just a feeling. It does not mean we have to do something in relationship to our thoughts and feelings, but instead, our goal is to not be enmeshed.

And to really observe that thought, observe that feeling to diffuse our deepest selves from the things that the brain might be doing, and to be able to lean into our minds.

Petal Modeste: So along with a theoretical understanding of bias. CBRT of course also provides training and workshops that teach individuals and organizations, how to recognize and reduce or mitigate bias. Why is it so important to have those skills in addition to the sort of theoretical understanding.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Day to day life is not theoretical. It is real, just like bias is a real thing. And so, helping people practice what you will do to align your values and your actions is a critical element. It builds those neural pathways. It’s the equivalency of watching a workout. I promise you, you will not get the abs you want by watching other people do sit ups.

Petal Modeste: No?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: And I dare say that that has been one of the greatest barriers in a lot of the bias reduction work.  It has this element that you can observe a skill and then acquire it. You’re going to have to practice it. So,  you could read all the beautiful books you could read mine. You could watch all these amazing videos. But when you actually grapple with behavior change, that’s when you build a neural pathway. And, it’s not like you’re going to get a calendar invite that today when you’re in an elevator. You’re going to have a microaggression at 3 pm. Someone’s gonna say something racist. Someone’s gonna say something fat phobic. Someone’s gonna say something queer phobic. And then you have all this time to prepare. It’s a microsecond. And so, having that practice is critical for our brain development and to ultimately create spaces of healing.

Petal Modeste: The training involves self-disclosure – sharing of personal experiences and you say that that sharing actually has to take place in a pretty unique environment. What is the psychological environment in which that sharing must take place in order for those neural pathways to form that will ultimately change behavior.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yes, you know I call it strategic self-disclosure. It really is recognizing. How did this bias get inside of me. What actually happened? And naming that thing? So then we can start to unpack it. Now a lot of the trainings that I do take place in the workplace, and many people don’t have the privilege of loving and caring for their coworkers and feeling safe. The critical element of this work is moving away from this idea that you have to be comfortable, and I think that that language of we’re trying to get people comfortable has really been limiting. But instead, it’s helping people recognize that they are capable even when they’re uncomfortable. And so that learning space is a space where we are radically holding the line of we are practicing. Healing is never done, that we are striving to let our good get better and our better get best. And so that environment is an environment that nurtures a growth mindset. And I think for many of the parents and caregivers that are listening. You understand the critical element of a growth mindset. And so, it’s not that you turn 18, and you’re done learning. Absolutely not.

Petal Modeste:  God. No.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: especially if you have given birth to your mentors like I have, my children will constantly make sure I learn. And so, the goal of the space is to really create an environment where people can be comfortable with their growth, be comfortable with not knowing, and not in a voyeuristic way. We have to stay away from spaces where people are just telling their stories for the sake of telling a story  that can reactivate trauma for people. But instead, it is strategic self-disclosure, strategic reflection with tools that help people be capable when they are uncomfortable.

Petal Modeste: Can you give us an example of how you have seen your approach CBRT Reduce individual bias?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: What I have seen is, you know, it’s like a light switch goes off for people. Bias is harmful for everyone, regardless of your privilege, because it limits your world. I think of bias as living in a house with blackout curtains. You feel safe, you feel comfortable. It might even be snuggly, but your world is limited. And so, when I’ve seen individuals, change is their curtains are open. There is more world, there’s more life for them. It looks like I used to think this about this group. And now I realize, wow, I didn’t have enough information. I realized that I was being biased. It looks like the identification of well, that statement was ageist. So, it is a naming of it, and it’s a checking oneself. It’s an ongoing method of understanding your own biases.

Petal Modeste: What about on an institutional level which I think must be a lot more challenging? Where have you seen this work?  I think on the institutional level, the biggest barrier is just the inefficiency of many of our systems. The other barrier can be that a lot of times people are trying to placate everyone. They want to make sure every single person is happy, and in a world of bias everyone is not going to be happy. Sometimes there will be adjustments and resources. The greatest change that I’ve seen in institutions is that they recognize that they have to have a system for reducing their biases. They have to have a check and balance system; a reflective system, they have to have accountability. The  other element is being able to shift their focus from this reactionary -okay, this thing happened in the news. So, let’s send an email. This reactionary approach to being more value driven. So, all of their actions are in line with the mission and the value of the institution, and their long term and short-term smart goals, that we all know we must have.

Petal Modeste: Now, you’ve also created a very thought-provoking deck of cards. I see a couple behind you there. They’re called the Racial Awareness Conversations for Everyone, cards or RACE, and they go along with the book. Several of the cards note some pretty startling facts, some we have heard and some we don’t know. For example, according to the Urban Institute, the Median wealth of white parents in the US. Is around $215,000. That of Latino parents, is about $35,000, and that of black parents is about $14,400. Another fact that the card state is that the Pew Research Survey has found that only 50% of white adults say that race or race relations come up at least sometimes in their conversations with friends and family. Then we’ve got another card that says, if Latinx and African Americans were incarcerated at the same rates as white Americans, our prison and jail populations would decline by 60%. And then, finally, it is estimated that the US. Economy would generate an additional 290 billion dollars by closing the revenue gap between Black and white businesses. So, we have all of these like mind-boggling statistics, studies, and yet tons of people resist the idea that individually we carry biases which obviously shape our communities and then our countries and our world. How could this be? Why, the denial? How do you get your patients or other people you work with to move away from that defensive posture, to just even being open about bias?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: I think a lot of it has to do with this misconception that if you have bias, if you have prejudice. You’re a bad person. This is not a moral question. It is about habit. It is about how our brains develop. And so, when we move away from this judgmental. Oh, you said this microaggression, you’re a horrible person. But instead, thinking about this is what you’ve been exposed to and people make decisions based on what they’re exposed to, and those decisions lead to actions, it moves away from anything that needs to be defended. You don’t have to defend your history. Instead, you make your future and your current moment. What are you going to do? So I think a lot of the pushback. The denial has to do with this point in our history, where we equated acknowledging difference as a bad thing rather than something that is beautiful, to be celebrated, to even be harnessed for good, that, thank goodness, there is diversity of thought and experience. But instead, many people have been trained, because of their history to view acknowledging of difference as a bad thing rather than an opportunity to fully see each other.

Petal Modeste: I started the conversation by revealing this confession of this mom, who is a senior executive at a health company about her sort of. I guess her conflicting views of working to end racism, and what that might mean for her son, who is white?

What would convince those who benefit most from bias to actually commit to reducing it. In other words, do they have to see that bias actually harms them, which I believe it does, in order to be convinced that they should try to reduce it. What would convince them?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Well, I think that’s your spot on with that. Oftentimes, when people are benefiting from bias, they don’t recognize the harm. Bias harms everyone, because even those who are privileged and may not be targeted, they are living in a smaller world. They also have a scarcity mindset often biases, perpetuated, because people believe if I was to give these resources to these people I wouldn’t have enough. It’s that scarcity mindset that actually, when you look at our resources related to housing, related to education, related to how our money is distributed. It’s not because we don’t have enough of these resources. It’s that we have a poor resource distribution system. And that poor resource distribution system comes from our bias. And so a critical element in helping people recognize bias has to do with understanding how theirs developed. So, if my bias is related to colorism, that maybe I prefer people who are darker skin or prefer people who are lighter skin. I have to understand as a clinical psychologist, how did that bias develop for you? Help you understand where that bias is showing up and then engage in your values. Why would that be problematic for you? Because you’re going to live in a world with people who only look a certain way, and that’s just not a realistic experience. We don’t live in silos.

Petal Modeste: as you know, Dana, our goal on this podcast. Is to give all who parent a better understanding of the forces shaping the future as well as cutting edge, parenting, tools and resources, all of which they can leverage as they raise the next generation of hopefully purposeful people. As you note in the book. Bias is a humanitarian crisis. It robs all of us of the well-being and the rich life we deserve. So, if we are to parent for a world where all of our kids can thrive, we have to work to reduce bias. Now, as you have said, in many different ways throughout our conversation. We’re not born biased. So how and at what age does bias begin to take root? 

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: There is some research that shows that babies, as young as 3 months old show a preference for the race that matches their caregivers. So you know, basically at 3 months old, if all of the people who take care of you are brown, you’re going to be looking for brown folks because they give you the milk. So, it’s a survival instinct. It’s not about being a good or a bad person. It literally is survival instinct. We do see around 3 years old that children start to have a preference for playmates based on appearance.

Petal Modeste: Okay.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: And then we see it around 5 or 6 that children start to equate behavior. So, you’re a good person if you look this way, this is a bad person. You did this thing because you’re that, and if you even look at a lot of the cartoons, you’ll see that you know some of the villains. They have bigger bodies, right? They have certain tones of their voices. They look a certain way,  Many parents disguise not talking about bias, prejudice and racism with their kids as preserving their innocence. They don’t want to introduce these concepts , particularly those who, depending on the country they live in, their race might bring privilege. They don’t want to expose their kids to these things because they want to preserve their innocence, but you don’t not tell your kids about kidnappers, because you want to preserve their innocence. You tell them about kidnappers because you want to keep them safe. And bias, prejudice and racism are harmful. And so, it’s critical that we are teaching our kids these things about the world to keep them safe. I find that in families that have been marginalized, that we may be explaining for survival.

Petal Modeste: Yeah.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: So, in one family privilege allows you to preserve innocence in another family, it has to be about protection and survival. Regardless. No one is liberated from this humanitarian work because we all live on this planet together.

Petal Modeste: Knowing this, how can parents first effectively confront their own biases? Because that’s part of even saying I’m not going to tell my kids about prejudice or racism, because I don’t want to mar their innocence right? So that’s a bias that I have when I think that to do so hurts them. But I’m not thinking about the kids who may not look like them or be like them that it is actually hurting. How can I confront my own biases. And then what are some actions I could take in my everyday life with my children to reduce the risk of bias taking root?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Yeah. So,   going back to that growth mindset of things that you can do. Think of healing bias as your dental care. You don’t brush your teeth today, and then think you’re done with taking care of your teeth. It’s every day that you are making choices to take care of your teeth and your gums. So, it looks like having a plan for that on an individual level as a parent. You are asking yourself. Who do I avoid? Who do I ignore? Who do I judge quickly in every interaction that you’re navigating the world? Your kids are watching you.

The other day I was my kids and I. We were taking something out of the car, and a woman in our community who’s unhoused. And she came up and she’s talking to us. And you know, I just said, “What do you need?” And so she said, “Oh, I need some money.” And I said, “I don’t have any money for you today, but here’s some water, and a snack”.  Gave her the snacks, she said, “Oh, bless you!” And “Oh, your babies are so beautiful” (they are) and went into a whole thing! And as she walked away, my 6-year-old turned to me and said, “Why do you talk to everybody?” And I said, “Because everybody matters to me”. And he said, “Okay.”  So, it looks like in your everyday interactions that you are naming that you are demonstrating that you are practicing. But you can’t do that if you’re not thinking about it. So, what are you ignoring? Who are you judging. Who are you avoiding? It also looks like auditing your life, your books, your friends, your values, and your silence. What aren’t you saying.  In a lot of my workshops. I asked the question, who taught you about culture, and did they teach you it with words, or did they teach you with silence? When I asked that question a lot of times, those in privileged identities, no one said anything. It was just an unspoken thing. It was unspoken in the doctors that they went to that looked a certain way. What movie theaters they went, to, what neighborhoods they went to, the friends, the people that were invited in their home, what they looked like, and the people that they only spoke to at the school.

Petal Modeste: Yes.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Your children are watching, and they are learning from you, and I think you know the other critical element for yourself and for your young people in your life is to teach the difference between danger and discomfort.  We have to recognize that often we are not in danger. When that coworker calls you out about the thing you said. What’s going to happen to you? Nothing. You’re not in danger. You’re uncomfortable. And teaching our children. The difference between danger and discomfort is one of the most powerful bias reduction tools you can give your kid.

Petal Modeste: One of the things you say in the book that really stayed with me is that bias is not about, and you’ve said it here, too, it’s not about being a good person or a bad person. Rather it results when the fear of not having enough takes hold. You’ve talked about the scarcity mindset. But “enough” to me seems really difficult to define. And maybe not knowing what that is, not having a standard definition, for “enough”  is partly why it’s so easy for biases to seem like they’re intractable. But. I do think we can heal bias. What does healing bias mean?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: The critical element is recognizing the word healing. The title of the book isn’t healed bias it’s “healing”. It’s an action. It is a constant action that we are engaged in. It is a process. And when we think about this concept of enough. What was enough when I was 10 versus when I’m 30 versus 40, when I’m 80, is going to change. And even what’s enough this morning to this afternoon is going to change. That’s why in the book an element in every single chapter is mindfulness. Being present in your life. If you are not present in your life. It is very hard for you to be present in your world. It is very difficult to be present in your parenting, and so enough is being in your current moment and recognizing what is happening to you right here right now? And is that in line with your values, or isn’t it? You know a lot of times. People think they can think their way out of bias. You can’t think your way out of it. You have to relate your way out of it.

Petal Modeste: What do you say to those who have given up on the idea that people are genuinely willing to learn and willing to practice reducing bias, and believe instead, that over time those on the receiving end of bias will build enough power to reduce or eradicate the impact of the biases that they face today?

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: I think that power may may, you know, and this is probably a controversial thing to say that power may be able to heal bias in a moment in a time, but it will resurface, because it’s how our brains are developed. So, you may have power to eradicate a particular type of bias right now. Sexism. Me, Too, movement. But it will always come back unless we are actually in relationship to each other. Right now, we’re in a moment, in time known as retrenchment and retrenchment, is when a society, or a group, or a country, or even an organization, sees significant progress in equity. And then we see a shift in those policies practices, and it seems like, Oh, my gosh! We take 10 steps forward and 20 steps back. That cycle of retrenchment happens because of power. If we’re using power as a tool to try and change a brain function, it will never work. We have to rewire our brains. This is about healing the bias that is existing in our brains in a very action, oriented, active way.

Petal Modeste: Well, what actually is good about that is there are cycles. So even if we might be in a place of retrenchment now you could also see that eventually we will go to the other side right? Because again, there will always be people who are actively present, thinking about how they relate to others. And so at some point again, we will see we will see a difference. So that actually, that actually is very hopeful. I want to end today, Dana, by reading the acknowledgment that you wrote in the book, because I think it really honors and makes visible all who have suffered because of bias. And to your point. That’s every single one of us. It’s all of our ancestors. It’s all of the people who are responsible for us being here. Sometimes the suffering has been really unbelievable. It’s been horrid. Sometimes it’s been invisible to others. And so, I think in reading this, what I want to leave our listeners with is the impact of bias. This is how bias hurts not just the person on the receiving end, but the person being biased and our entire world. So, I’m just going to read that to end. It says: 

“To those who came before me, known and unknown whose blood runs through my veins. We thank you.

To my ancestors, who held on when the world tried to break them, who whispered prayers into the night, who sacrificed their dreams so I could have the chance to chase mine. We love you.

“To those who give their bodies, their minds and their spirits who carried burdens too heavy to bear, but bore them anyway, we are sorry.

“To those who worked till their hands ached, who bit their tongues when they wanted to scream, who protected their children with nothing but share, will please forgive us.

“To those who dared to dream even in the face of impossible odds, who fought, who wept, who refused to be erased. You are our wildest dreams, we are because you were. 

We stand because you refused to fall. We dream because you made a way out of no way. Your sacrifices were not in vain.”

Petal Modeste: Thank you, Dana, so much for sharing your wisdom and your remarkable work with us today. We could not get to all of the richness in this book, all of the wonderful exercises that all of us can practice to reduce bias in our own hearts and in our own lives. So, I hope everyone picks up a copy of the book. But thank you most for believing in and working for a world where every child will have a fair shot at becoming who they were born to be and empowering us to do our part to create that world. We appreciate you, and we wish you continued success.

Dr. Dana E. Crawford: Thank you so much for having me, and for holding this space.

Dr. Dana Crawford

Zuckerman Institute

Montefiore Medical Center

Healing Bias